Ep 151: Answering the big questions: An Ellen MacArthur Foundation round table

Pippa Shawley 00:04

Hello, and welcome to the Circular Economy Show Podcast. I'm Pippa and in this week's episode, we're addressing some frequently asked questions we're faced with at the Ellen MacArthur Foundation. And to help me out, I'm joined by my colleagues, Seb Read, Content Lead at the Ellen MacArthur Foundation; and Sarah O'Carroll, our Institutions Lead. Welcome both.

Sarah O'Carroll 00:22

Thanks.

Seb Egerton-Read 00:22

Thanks for having me. Pippa. I understand that you put a poll out and I was voted as the person that people wanted to hear answering these questions. Is that true?

Pippa Shawley 00:30

I can neither confirm nor deny. I want to start off with a topic that comes up quite a lot when you talk to people about the circular economy, particularly people that don't work very closely with it, which is recycling. So as somebody that tries to do their best in life, I tried to stick to a quite close recycling regime. But it's quite controversial in circular economy circles, isn't it, Sarah? Is it a bad thing? How helpful is it when we talk about the circular economy?

Sarah O'Carroll 01:01

I mean, recycling is not a bad thing. It's definitely a good thing. But it's not going to be the silver bullet that solves everything. I mean, when we're not going to have a silver bullet for the circular economy, but we need more than recycling. So recycling is kind of what we we talk about as end of pipe in terms of circulating products and materials, recycling is definitely a solution when it comes to that. But the circular economy kind of starts right at the beginning and in how we design products and materials. And so we can't just rely on recycling, we have to think about design, we have to think about reuse, repair, remanufacturing, composting, how we grow food, all of those things are the circular economy as well.

Pippa Shawley 01:47

Yeah. And Seb, what do you think about that?

Seb Egerton-Read 01:48

Well, and I think like, it's very common conversation, when you when I say to people, I work in circular economy. People say well, yeah, I I like recycle my cardboard, I recycle this thing. And, and very often, that's the first conversation with businesses, they'll say something along the lines of: Okay, so yeah, we're thinking about how can we recycle our products. And as Sarah said, that's not a bad thing. But actually, it's, you're kind of starting at the wrong point in the way in which you're thinking about, the solutions are out there, like for starters, like you can't really recycle effectively, unless you design the product differently from the outset anyway. So you have to think about what's going into the system. And secondly, actually, recycling is effectively how we take materials and return them back into the system. But if you think about the Foundation's, or people might be familiar with the Foundation's kind of butterfly illustration, we kind of know is the things like reuse, redistribution remanufacturing they require less energy, less labour, to return the keep things in use at a really high value or circulate products and materials, the second principle of the circular economy. So the answer is obviously that recycling is a good thing. But it's almost quite helpful to think about it as the last resort for a product or material or component, as opposed to the starting point when we have the conversation. So I spent a lot of time saying: No, it's not recycling or so not only recycling.

Pippa Shawley 03:05

Yeah. And I think we also when we're approached by guests, that people that want to come on the show as guests, there are a lot of people who are doing recycling, upcycling stuff and calling it circular. But I think there's a risk there of the definition of circular economy being a bit confused. 100%.

Sarah O'Carroll 03:22

A 100%. I mean, I think, I mean, it's problematic when recycling and the circular economy are spoken about as one in the same thing, because they're certainly not think I agree with say, recycling is such a helpful place to start a conversation. But it needs to be a conversation starter. And we one of the things we say all the time at the foundation as well is that the design choices that we make right at the start in terms of how we're thinking about designing products and materials, impact 80% of the environmental impacts. And so recycling is just kind of one of those things, and it can't be the whole conversation at all, because there are so many opportunities in the circular economy, so many more than just kind of recycling.

Seb Egerton-Read 04:10

And the challenges globally are massively differently different, right? So in some parts of the world, you're talking about actually quite massive infrastructure investment even to get systems in place. And again, the question is what what's the optimal design of that system, if you have nothing in the first place, and in other parts of the world, you know, where we are now for instance, UK, there's quite sophisticated recycling systems but because of some of the things there has been talking about that you know, PT, for instance, as material was technically quite a recyclable material, there's very rarely recycled back into new PT. Because the design of the products the design of the systems those products exist in the ability to keep those the some of those products in use don't actually mean that PT, maybe will turn into carpet or some other lower value material really quickly.

Pippa Shawley 04:57

And you've been here quite a while so we've been In what nearly a decade really? Yes, you started as a child. And I wonder, have you seen a change in that decade or so of people's understanding of the difference between recycling and secular economy?

Seb Egerton-Read 05:14

I think you could say broadly, the conversation has moved what we would call it upstream, you know, so the conversation has moved into a space of talking about design innovation, I think the term has become a lot more prevalent. And to some degree, like, there's a risk of dilution that kind of gets attached to lots of different things as a consequence. So I think the key, not the confusion, but the, the, the conflation of, though, of like recycling as the economy still exists, but definitely, there's a much bigger conversation that exists now than when I joined the foundation 2014 around upstream design innovation, what policies and financial measures need to be put into the economy to produce circular economy outcomes?

Sarah O'Carroll 05:57

In the in the policy world, thinking about national governments and city governments? We're starting to see this shift in the conversation from waste management, where recycling as a waste management strategy into resource management, and what are the kinds of infrastructures that you need to be able to sport resource management, so collection and sorting and washing, to be able to reuse and repair kind of refurbish products, which I think is really exciting as well.

Pippa Shawley 06:26

Yeah. Interesting. You bring institutions in there, because I think one reason that we often focus on recycling in those conversations is because it's the individual action piece. And that's another frequently asked question that comes up quite a lot is: What is the role of the individual? Should users even notice that this transition to a circular economy is happening? What are your views on that? Seb, maybe you can start us off.

Seb Egerton-Read 06:47

What I often get asked is: What is the role of the consumer in a circle economy? And personally, I hate the word consumer. Like, it's interesting, because at this microphone, for instance, which is quite tempting actually, to try and consume it, because sort of in your face, but if you tried, if I tried to consume this microphone, it would do my body like quite serious damage, even if I could get it into my system, somehow, it's quite a convenient word to say, it's quite a convenient thing almost to say that once something is sold to someone they have consumed it, irrespective of whether it's consumable. And in reality, what we do, of course, is we use this microphone for a period of time. And I think that's quite interesting in the context of the kind of role of the individuals the other way that question kind of gets expressed, because in a linear economy, every part of the chain has been optimised from taking something on the ground to making it to using it and the agency of the customer consumer, and that space is only to consume. And so people kind of go down this avenue of saying, well, and when you change that system, they they assume that was just about what different choices an individual can make, because that's the only thing you're sort of doing in a linear economy? Well, I think it's very, so I think, you know, like, what's really interesting, then about when we talk about circum, is, well, what is the actual changed role of a person in that system. And actually, what the circular economy does, I think is like involves that individual in the economy a lot more like they might be involved in repairing or the circulation of products, they might be involved in engaging, actually, with the economy in a different way. And then the final thing on that, so I think there's something in that mix around, actually, like moving past this notion of consumer. The other thing actually is, in terms of the awareness, I do think that circular economy and some of the work that we do with things like this podcast, is it's interesting to think like what role do people play in crank advocacy, the change, and so like people thinking and understanding that circular economy is a good thing. It's probably very good for businesses and policymakers who are trying to bring it to life. So that kind of education and understanding of the idea is really valuable, and education is an action.

Pippa Shawley 08:56

And Sarah, I think when we've looked at things in the past, like carbon footprints and thinking about whether you fly too much, and what you're eating, there's a lot of onus put on the individual there, but you work with institutions who hypothetically have a lot of power to make big change, how do you see the role of the individual, the user, the consumer, whatever you want to call them?

Sarah O'Carroll 09:17

I mean, I think this conversation is so interesting, definitely what we see in Europe is an increasing kind of conversation around the role of the individual how to tackle consumption and behaviour change. Because this opportunity that you have to create demand for circular products and services, by being able to tap into the potential of individual choices that are being made. And as part of that, we're seeing a shift as well and awareness raising campaigns away from just like what you need to do so stop flying. As an example to you Different choices that you can make. So don't just fly, take a ferry, take the train, take the bus, like can you cycle can you walk. And so kind of more and more really sophisticated awareness raising campaigns tackle that changing consumer behaviour, also, including things like gamification to kind of make that more exciting for for the individual. But ultimately, citizen behaviour change individuals changing their behaviour can only optimise or kind of make our very linear system better, it's not going to fundamentally change the system. And so at the institutional and policy level, it always kind of goes back to then like, but we need to change business models. And to do that we need an enabling policy environment, and businesses need funding to be able to transition quickly.

Pippa Shawley 10:56

Yeah.

Sarah O'Carroll 10:57

And so then that's kind of the space that we play in.

Pippa Shawley 11:00

And Ithink it's really good that you've reminded us that we're working within a system there, and we're talking about systems change, because I know our Big Food Redesign Challenge is to address the fact that consumers don't have a lot of choice when they go to the supermarket, for example, you know, we're eat, like most of our food is made up of four types of food, where's the choice and that for consumers? And broadening that out?

Seb Egerton-Read 11:22

How do you even like, assess it as well? Like, I mean, I've tried to look at product labels before and sometimes things that people tell you are good, and they're not good in six months time. So as an individual trying to understand even what a good choice is, versus a bad choice is really difficult.

Pippa Shawley 11:37

And you've got other priorities as well, you're looking at price, you've got time, all the rest of it as well.

Sarah O'Carroll 11:42

Yeah, we definitely see the topics around convenience, like how easy is it for someone? Can they access it? Like, do they live too far away to be able to do something different? What is the price point? Can they afford to make a different choice? And ultimately, if we change business models, then it means that individuals can only make great choices because only the right choices are presented to them?

Pippa Shawley 12:05

Exactly. You want to choose the easiest path because that's what people most people will do.

Seb Egerton-Read 12:12

And that points to where the agency is because that question partly can come from a place of like, what can I do? And like my answer to that is like, don't just think about yourself as a consumer of things. And that's all you do in the economy. But it can also come from a point of view of, we need to see this demand signal in order to do something. But the reality is, it's actually how do organisations design really powerful solutions that drive people into the circular economy? If you look at the kind of boom in resale, repair, fashion models, for instance, a lot that has come from innovative businesses, putting solutions out there that people are drawn to and want to engage with and are convenient and affordable businesses.

Pippa Shawley 12:45

Forget circular, they're just good businesses.

Sarah O'Carroll 12:47

And the products are cool. And the products taste great.

Pippa Shawley 12:50

Yeah. Or like, you know, somebody makes something really convenient for you to do instead of you having to maybe drive to a different town, because that's where the one zero waste shop is.

Sarah O'Carroll 12:58

Exactly.

Pippa Shawley 12:59

Yeah. Thank you. I'm gonna move us on to quite a different topic. But Seb earlier, you mentioned our butterfly diagram. And that takes us back to the pillars of what a circular economy is. So eliminate waste, cycle products and materials and regenerate nature. And I think we talked a lot about eliminating waste, and quite a lot about keeping things in circulation. But I wondered if you guys could talk a little bit about how the circular economy helps nature because it feels like quite a hot topic at the moment. Sarah, do you want to start us off?

Sarah O'Carroll 13:31

Yeah. Um, so we published our report "The Nature Imperative" a few years ago, and I guess that for us was kind of our first big explorations into the opportunity of regenerating nature is one of the three principles for the circular economy, kind of our big messages there are around reducing threats to nature by eliminating waste and pollution, leaving space for nature by circulating products and materials, and regenerating nature to enable nature to thrive. And from there, we've continued the exploration largely through our food work. And most recently, we've started to do that through thinking about buildings and construction. So we have a report coming up pretty soon, which will detail the opportunities there, what we're seeing is opportunity for hundreds of 100,000s of jobs being created. Through taking nature positive circular decisions, what we're seeing is really great positive impact for health because of reduced air pollution, water pollution, etc. But also the opportunity to create more nutritional food because of the way that ingredients and food is produced. And at the at the policy level, I think we're really kind of just at the start in the conversations that we're having, but we are seeing momentum, move in the right direction, which is really great. At the national government level, Brazil in 2017 sets really ambitious reforestation targets, we've been really pleased to see the progress that they've made. So they've reached more than 20% of their targets already. And England has implemented a biodiversity net gain policy, which states that developers have to increase or improve the biodiversity in and around their developments by 10%, which is amazing. And at the city level, more and more, we're also seeing cities not just have a circular economy, or climate change plan, but also biodiversity or kind of nature plan for their city, where they really look at the opportunities around urban planning and food to be able to make a positive impact on nature and biodiversity.

Pippa Shawley 15:50

I think what I'm hearing there is that this is becoming much less of a niche thing as well, like it's broadening out into the everyday rather than just people that work in sustainability, or, you know, green jobs. It's making every job a green job and Seb, Have you seen that?

Seb Egerton-Read 16:07

I mean, I think that the circular economy is a business imperative and a kind of political imperative, as well. So that's, you know, that's what kind of with these big issues like the climate crisis, climate crisis and the nature crisis, that that's seeing it shift up that agenda, and we've been talking about broadly on this podcast is how does it actually fundamentally tied to economic transformation. And in that sense, is coming out of a it needs to it is coming out of a kind of niche, and but still has much more to do to be at the heart of the kind of business economic doing, I mean, just coming back to by just going back to nature and biodiversity, specifically, the habit of butchering numbers, so I'm not. So this isn't an absolute quote. But in that Nature Imperative Report, it attributed something like 90%, or around 90%, of biodiversity loss to the way in which we extract and process our materials and the way in which we manage our land and grow our food. And if you think about how much effort goes into conservation, which obviously is similar to recycling such a critical thing to happen, yeah, it's that kind of what that 90% attaches to is how the economy is operating. And Natsu common economy, the way the economy operates, shifts, both in terms of the enabling the conditions, like the policy initiatives, and in terms of how things are made and how our food is grown and got reaches us. The biodiversity like the nature imperative, or the nature of crisis isn't likely to cease. And that's why it's so critical that it kind of comes out of that niche and becomes everyone's in everyone's kind of space, if you like in terms of thinking about.

Pippa Shawley 17:42

I also think it's quite a visual element. I think, for those individuals that we were talking about earlier, if you see positive impact from an increased focus on biodiversity. That's quite exciting. You know, if you if you see the green buildings happening, and maybe like more butterflies in your garden, for example, that's quite encouraging in a way that maybe you don't see in something more behind the scenes, like supply chains.

Sarah O'Carroll 18:07

Yeah, I mean, maybe not even just encouraging, more comfortable. So if we think of cities and the places that we live, as having increased green spaces that are healthier places to live, because of the way that they're constructed, and because of the way that they're planned, like, how great is that to be able to live in a space that's healthier for you more comfortable? Because we've reduced the heat island effect from less concrete and more permeable roads and infrastructure? That's just a much better life.

Pippa Shawley 18:38

Yeah, I think it should be said that it's not without its controversies with that kind of thing. So I'm thinking about my home city of London, the Ulez Policy from the Mayor of London has been quite controversial for cutting down pollution there. How I think maybe this leads on to my next question, which is like what the threats are to the circular economy? and what the big challenges are. So Sarah, what do you see in institutions maybe?

Sarah O'Carroll 19:04

I think our challenge is to move the circular economy link to everything. What Sed was saying earlier about having the circular economy as a economic agenda. Our challenge is to move the circular economy out of an environmental agenda into industrialization and economic development ministries, and embedding the circular economy transversality across the policy framework. Because if it's seen as a economic opportunity, first and foremost, it really supports the business case for the circular economy. And linked to that, one of our biggest challenges at the moment is we talk about making the economics work. And so because our economies are hardwired for and by the linear economy, it means that the circular economy, it's difficult to take it out of a niche exception to the norm. And so we need to be creating economic incentives and changing regulations to be able to have the circular economy as the norm rather than the exception. And that conversation is also gaining a lot of momentum. At the moment, we have a lot of international institutions and national governments calling for economic reforms, thinking about the way subsidies go, thinking about taxes and fee structures, increasing conversations around extended producer responsibility. So again, the conversation we were having earlier about the individual, kind of shifting the responsibility from the individual back to the businesses who designed these products that that we have on the market.

Pippa Shawley 20:59

Yeah. Would you see the same thing sub or have you seen other challenges?

Sarah O'Carroll 21:02

I mean, I joined the foundation when I was even younger, 10 years ago, in 2014. And I remember, I didn't know what the subcommittee was, and someone said to me, the current economy is linear, you take something on the ground, you make something and it becomes waste. And what we're saying is that there's a, there's a different vision of how the economy could work. And like I found that really profound at that moment, because I've never thought about the economy in that way before. But I immediately recognised that that's how this table was made. That's how with microphones made all the things around me followed that model, most of them follow that model. And, and then, like, what was already evident at the time was there was actually an economical and macro economic opportunity to play for that foundation already republished several publications, that highlighted trillion dollar, billion dollar opportunities and other consultancies and firms were beginning to identify a similar opportunity. And that's kind of continued during the 10 years I've been at the foundation. And what we've kind of seen is, in that time, it's impossible fro somenone now to join the Foundation without knowing what the circular economy is because it's, it's prevalent enough as an idea that you can kind of be, if you're in the space, you kind of know what it is, or have some sense of the terminology. And, and people are chasing the opportunity. But I think the two things that kind of linked to what Sarah was saying, I'm just supporting Sarah, the two things are kind of linked to that is that you so you see the opportunity, and you understand you move from line to circle, but I don't think it's people always embrace what the mindset shift is in attachment to that, like they, they're kind of trying to use the same approaches, same thinking, to get from that line to a circle. And actually, you have to be able to embrace a very different mindset. In my role, as Content Leade, I'm involved in a lot of our learning work and, and it's quite interesting. So I've done educational work with both schoolchildren and with people with 30 plus years experience in a field. And being able to see the world differently, it's so much easier for a child in school than it is for someone who's had 30 years of training of seeing a certain way, yeah, but the people who can make the change have had the 30 years of training of like, this is how it works. And so that mindset shift, I think is still a big barrier. Like for individuals that kind of plays, you can get very senior level buy in and then through organisations that that kind of mindset shift has to carry through in terms of how it's operationalized, or turned into policy, or whatever it might be. And then to Sarah's point, like even if you can see the macro economic opportunity, you understand you need new approaches, the whole system, from an economics point of view from the way businesses work and incentivize, the way that the policy and finance practices work is just geared towards a linear optimised for a linear economy. And shifting those enabling conditions is a big shift in those conditions is a really big part of making those economics work. And it kind of requires bravery and innovation to cut through. But realising that can only go so far until the wider system changes. And the kind of foresight to find those kind of levers that that really get us towards that kind of tipping point where it becomes normalised.

Seb Egerton-Read 21:32

And you talked there about how a decade ago, people didn't necessarily know what the circular economy was, and now a lot of people do. Moving on to our final question, I wondered what other progress you'd seen and what some success stories maybe from your time at the Ellen MacArthur Foundation have been?

Sarah O'Carroll 24:13

Yeah, and I think, broadly, the idea is out there, it's really, for me, like, I have lots of conversations with people about the barriers and the challenges and like, there's a lot of challenging context as well, just in world currently, geopolitically, you know, in terms of like, the scale of what's needed, what needs to happen to meet some of the challenges that we've spoken about on this podcast. But what I've had the fortune to kind of witness in my time that foundation is literally an idea going from not really being spoken about just seeing it in so many policy documents to seeing it in so many business strategies. And, and what we've kind of seen as mass kind of piloting, if you like, like there's so many interesting examples and case studies of the circular economy being put out there into the world by businesses across the built environment, the fashion sector, food world, plastics name the sector, there's probably some example of the circular economy being delivered by a small business or a large business or and then that converting into the policy world. And, you know, that means there are things in the world now that just didn't exist and have been mobilised by this kind of idea and the potential of this idea, and I think that's a really big thing, that's a huge step for for the, for the sort of idea and for the foundation's own, you know, success as well to have happened. And, you know, come back to the challenges, like there's this kind of wider implementation challenge that absolutely exists. But that's not underestimate just how much really has happened, you know, billions of dollars of investment being mobilised policy packages across a whole range of geographies. And, and probably probably hundreds and hundreds of examples of business innovation.

Pippa Shawley 25:56

I think, also going back to what you were saying earlier about that mindset shift. That's a huge amount of work in the first place. So to have those people advocating for it in those large companies, governments, other places, is really very encouraging, I'd say. Sarah, what kind of progress have you seen? How long have you been at the foundation?

Sarah O'Carroll 26:15

Almost five years.

Pippa Shawley 26:17

A good amount of time to watch things unfold?

Sarah O'Carroll 26:19

Yeah, I think so. I think what's exciting for me is that we've seen Chatham House recently published a report on a global stocktake of roadmaps around the world. So more than 70 roadmaps that they've analysed and seeing momentum bolds, kind of around the world. So we don't just have national roadmaps in Europe anymore. Increasingly, we have national roadmaps in Latin America, in Africa, in Asia, which is also this increasing awareness around the opportunity, economic opportunity, not just for developed countries, but for developing countries as well. And we're not just seeing roadmaps that are vision setting, and roadmaps that kind of set the direction and the priorities at the country or city level, we have lots of roadmaps at the city level now. But what we're also seeing is more operational plans, and action plans to move that strategy into implementation. And there's lots of evidence to support that shift from vision setting to implementation. And I think what's great to see as well as our network members who are also really committed to implementation. So I think the Big Food Redesign Challenge is a fantastic example of food production, food product companies, committing to make circular food products that are produced in ways that eliminate waste and pollution circulate products and materials and regenerate nature. I think the fashion remodel that was launched just last week, I think, is another fantastic example of moving from not just one product with the jeans redesign, which originally it was like it's not possible to it is possible. There are lots of companies now who produce circular jeans, to not just jeans, but actually were committed to circular revenues. And that's amazing. Like compared to where we were five years ago when I joined the foundation, that ambition of businesses as well, it's just so much bigger compared to where we were.

Pippa Shawley 28:29

Yeah. And what would you like to see happen in the next five years, maybe?

Sarah O'Carroll 28:34

Oh, my goodness, five years, I would love to see the circular economy as a cool theme as part of COP and climate change conversations. And I would love to see circular economy as a theme in the biodiversity COPs as well, I think that would definitely see us kind of cementing the circular economy as a systems solutions framework to tackle these big global challenges. And I'd really like to see just kind of, I don't know if we'll get there by the end of the year, but the UN treaty to end plastic pollution, if we have a global treaty with legally binding rules that have comprehensive circular economy measures, we would be kind of a step change further to changing the plastic system, accelerating change there and ending plastic pollution.

Pippa Shawley 29:30

Yeah, definitely got our fingers crossed for that one. What about you Seb what would you like to see in the next five to 10 years happen?

Seb Egerton-Read 29:35

I think, well, I mean, Sarah's given some good examples, but I think just to broaden out I think that I'd love to see a kind of massive upskilling of people beyond the sustainability teams in Oregon that will be on the environmental ministries and organisations on circular economy because that to me is a sign that the circular economy is becoming part of the infrastructure of an organisation or policy body. And I'd love hear people making jokes about the circular economy in a pub. I think that would be a really interesting sign that, that there's perforating into culture.

Pippa Shawley 30:08

which is what I've been exploring recently as well.

Seb Egerton-Read 30:10

It's something I'm really interested in, because I think it speaks to the kind of mainstreaming and normalising of an idea. And again, like, what that exactly means if they're using the precise term Circular Economy of they're using our three principles. That's like, that's a question. But I think that notion that this, this way of doing things is somewhat understood and engaged with, in a context that people have begun to recognise it and reflect on it in their own lives, would be to me a sign that that agency from policymakers and businesses is taking action has been influenced people. Sorry. Anyone listened to podcasts? If you hear me hitting the microphone, it's because I'm not a professional podcaster. So I would say that yeah, exactly. So that that if that is happening in the pub, I think it would be a sign that the agency of policy institutions, financial, financial mechanisms and businesses is taking hold to a point that people are beginning to recognise that a different way of doing things is impacting their lives. And it's culturally understood enough that two people can talk about it in a social interaction.

Pippa Shawley 31:13

Yeah. And also great ideas come from those pub sessions. So if everyone's got informed on that, then who knows what things will we will see in the next decade.

Seb Egerton-Read 31:22

It could be a cafe for people who like coffee, or a walk on the beach or in a city park and chat with your mom.

Pippa Shawley 31:30

Well, unfortunately, we're out of time for today. But thank you so much for joining us, Sarah and Seb and thank you for listening at home. If you have more questions for us in the future. You can email us at podcast at E M f.org. Or you can leave a comment on YouTube or Spotify. So we hope you'll join us again next time. Thank you. Bye bye!